Interview Hobbs consultancy
Me:
Thanks. So I could start with why there is a need to get all employers thinking about employing people with autism.
Roxanne Hobbs (Head of Hobbs consultancy):
Yeah, I’m just thinking about how I want to answer that question because I believe many different aspects should be considered. I think there’s a massive underemployment rate amongst autistic people. The underemployment rate is significant; this needs to be corrected, and they need help finding more meaningful employment. I’m not going to be able to quote the number for you, but I know it’s too high. It should be a human right for people to have access to employment where they can make a difference. I also think autistic people have got so much to offer. I think they can be fabulous, and they can have such a lot to bring in and offer to the workplace. I would love to see the workplace benefit from those experiences and those skills.
Me:
As a consultancy, you look at enabling employers to employ neurodiverse individuals. What kind of organizations do you get coming to? What factors do you look at when improving the working environment for Autistic employees?
Roxanne Hobbs:
What kind of organizations? So, people don’t tend to come to us with that specific question about improving the environment for autistic people because of the nature of our business. We get people coming to us who want to improve their diversity and inclusion as an organization. They come in with that high-level objective, and then within that, we might be talking about gender, we might be talking about race, and then we start talking about neurodiversity as well. I think many of the organizations I work with are quite creative organizations. So, they might be do things such as branding or advertising or architectural firms. I actually think a lot of the time these companies have more neurodiversity than they realize within their building anyway. And I’m going to feed into a stereotype here. But if you think about an architectural company then Dyslexic people, the stereotype is that typically they good at that kind of creativity and spatial awareness.
And so it would make sense to me that within an architect’s practice, they might over-index on Dyslexia. And I think part of the process is it’s not just about getting people through the door, is it about creating an environment where those people can thrive, but also where they can feel able to disclose that they’re Dyslexic, that there’s no stigma or shame associated with it, and they can be seen for the strength that they bring to the table as well.
Me:
How do organizations kind of typically respond when you start talking about neurodiversity?
Roxanne Hobbs:
You know what? This has been so fascinating for me. So, I started talking about neurodiversity and organizations in 2018 we did the Diverse Minds conference. That’s when we first started talking about it. And I was astonished at how it was embraced with open arms. Actually, I’d been speaking about gender for five years, at least before then. And I’d met a lot of cynicism, a lot of microaggressions against me. Somebody literally said, oh, you’re going to start burning your bra now, Roxs and those kinds of comments. And it felt like a constant push to persuade people that gender diversity was good for business. I haven’t experienced that same cynicism when speaking about neurodiversity. And I think it’s because if it’s explained well to people and especially the concept of the Spiky profile, that someone who is neurodivergent will typically; that they’ll be things they excel in and things they struggle with. I think leaders can see quite quickly the potential benefits that such individuals can bring to organisations.
So, I think people get the business advantage of embracing neurodiversity quicker than they understand the business advantages of gender diversity in the workplace. That being said, there is the danger, isn’t there, that we’re just talking about a certain type of neurodiversity. We’re talking about, God, I hate this language. I don’t really want to use it, but we’re talking about the individuals that are going to be able to perform at a very high level within an organization. Obviously, you know as well as I do that autism is a very complex condition, and you’ve got an enormous amount of variety in there, and you’ve got some people that really would struggle in the workplace on that spectrum. And I am worried that that kind of business case argument excludes a lot of autistic people. So, there is a downside to that. In summary, the business case is understood a lot more readily than it is with other diversity metrics. But there’s the danger that that doesn’t include all neurodivergent people or autistic people even.
Me:
I am interested in hearing more about how your organisation have gone towards more employment for neurodiversity for example you mentioned the neurodiversity conference what did that involve?
Roxanne Hobbs:
So we’ve done two, one in 2018 and one in 2019. And then we’re going to do one in 2020, and then the Pandemic happened. The 2018 one was all about celebrating neurodiversity in the advertising industry. And what we did was invite people who identified as neurodiverse, whatever language you prefer to use to share their stories. So, I had an autistic CEO, for example. We had a dyslexic female founder, and they spoke, they stood up and shared their story of their struggle, but also of their strengths, their so-called superpowers that they brought in, and how they had almost learned to see their neuro divergence as a critical part of their success, not something that held them back. And it really was for me, the underlying theme of that event was about challenging stereotypes, and I think it had real meaning for me on a personal level as well. My son had been diagnosed with autism a couple of years before, and I had definitely been guilty of having stereotypes in my head about what that meant for him and his long-term career. And so, it was incredibly healing for me to see an autistic CEO who was thriving in his job just to see what was possible.
And I think from what I’m told, it had the same impact on all of our neurodiverse people in the audience. So, they were like, this doesn’t need to hold me back. I don’t need to buy into these limiting stereotypes that exist in our culture. That was the first one and then the second one. I felt it was really important to be upfront about some of the challenges that people might face because I feel like maybe we just presented the shiny side of it of all the benefits that it brings. And obviously there’s very real challenges that some of these individuals would have on a day-to-day basis in an organization. So, the second one was much more focused on the kind of support that people could get, like coaching in organizations. It was that neurodivergent design e.g., designing buildings and cabins that were neurodiversity friendly. It was about art created by neurodiverse people. It was, really looking at more practical support and barrier removal for people. And the idea was that our third event was going to be about neurodivergent leadership, but the pandemic has impacted our schedule.
Me:
Okay, so I’m assuming a divergent friendly building focuses on having the right kind of lighting, sound proofing offices, that kind of thing?
Roxanne Hobbs:
Yeah, absolutely. That I’ve just been judging the neurodiversity Awards for genius within. And there’s a really interesting entry by Balfour Beatty. it might be worth speaking to them because this is a little bit second hand, but my understanding is that they have a lot of their workforce in those kinds of temporary huts that people work in. And they worked with one of the autism charities and the designer to really create that temporary work accommodation. So like you said really thinking about the sound, the lighting, just other things within it as well. And it’s a really neat little case study of what can be done.
Me:
There are costs involved. However I suppose it also helps people who aren’t neurodiverse to actually work well. Some of the adjustments, for example, might be useful just generally.
Roxanne Hobbs:
Yeah. I think when you think about inclusive design, there’s a thought that one person’s challenges. Let’s say you take an autistic person’s challenges with a specific work environment. That person’s challenges are all of our micro challenges. So, if you solve for that person, you’re actually making it easier for everybody because you’re addressing all of our micro challenges. So even though I don’t have an autism diagnosis, I still find echoey buildings really irritating and I still get distracted by lights. And so, a building that reduces that noise, would be a better workspace for me as well. So, as you solve for that, you solve for everyone’s micro challenges, it’s a really nice design thought. You tend to find that these solutions are good for everybody.
Me:
So that’s the building side of things what about neurodiverse adjustments in general for example, how much requirement is it for companies to do diversity training?
Head Hobbs consultancy:
There’s no governmental requirement at all. There’s nothing that they have to do. There’s nothing. The companies that I work with have decided that diversity is the future of business and they want to educate their employees and create behavioural shifts in their organization to welcome that. So, it’s completely been kicked off by a CEO or an HR director or head of HR who’s like, actually, this makes business sense for us. Let’s invest in it. And when I say invest, obviously financially, but time and resource and energy as well. So yeah, it comes from good people in the organization thinking about the possibility.
Me:
However, the lack of government pressure may mean that some of the companies don’t really think about diversifying their work force.
Head Hobbs consultancy:
The vast majority of companies, probably.
Me:
However, I have had conversations with people and they tell me they feel there is pressure to diversify. Where does the pressure come from?
Head Hobbs consultancy:
Don’t get me wrong, they are under pressure too. But that pressure isn’t coming through a legal framework from the government. They don’t have to do any kind of diversity training or work. The pressure is coming from other parts of industry. So, say you work in advertising and say Coca Cola is looking for a new advertising agency. Coca Cola will be in their brief for the agencies to respond to. They’ll be saying to the agencies, what are you doing about the diversity, equity and inclusion in your company? What’s your plan? What’s your strategy? So potential future clients are putting the pressure on. Also, people who work at the company will be putting pressure on, especially the millennials and next generation coming through. They’ll be saying, what’s going on? Why is there a bunch of white men at the top? We need to be doing something about this. And they’re demonstrating that with their feet as well. So, they will leave companies or just join companies that have really clear diversity strategies in place. So, they are under pressure. But it’s not coming from any kind of legal framework. It’s coming from clients, suppliers, talent, people within the organization as well.
Me:
So people have taken the diversity inclusion training. Have you had people feedback to you about improvements from their staff or anything like this?
Head Hobbs consultancy:
Absolutely. One of the most wonderful outcomes of doing neurodiversity workshops and organizations is it starts a conversation about neurodiversity, and then people start to come forward and say, hey, I’m autistic, I’m dyslexic. I’ve never felt safe to disclose that before. I’ve got loads of examples of organizations where that’s happened after we’ve been in. And then those people are then getting the support that they need, but they’re also contributing to that cultural shift where it’s all right to have to ask for help sometimes it’s all right not to be a perfect human being, whatever that is, because none of us are. So, yeah, I definitely see that kind of systemic change happening. And some organizations I’ve gone into, and then I don’t see them for two years. And then I hear that they’ve done a neurodiversity panel that they had a partnership with Ambitious about Autism, that they developed all of these kinds of strategies after we’ve gone in. And we’ve always done the awareness piece and introduced the topic, and then action has been taken off of the back of that to instigate real change. It’s great.
Me:
Do you think there is anything more we can be doing to encourage diversity in organisations?
Roxanne Hobbs:
It’s a really good question. Yeah. I don’t know where I stand on that. When we think about diversity, I say that we’re in the third paradigm at the moment. So, at the beginning, it was all about the legal frameworks, actually. So, it was all about people getting sued for sexual discrimination in the 70s. And because there was so much legal stuff around diversity, one of the unintentional outcomes of that was people were quite scared about hiring for diversity, then we went from the phase of it all being about the moral and social responsibility, which was effective. But there’s a lot of people that if you say you should do this, you ought to do this, they just switch off and stop treating me like a child and telling me what to do. I think where we are now is characterized by the business case and by business case, I don’t necessarily mean commercials and profitability, although that its part of it for most companies. But I think for some people, the business case is recruiting and retaining the best talent, coming up with the best solutions, being an exciting and culturally interesting place to work.
And I think once we’ve entered that third paradigm that’s been the most effective. So, yes, I think probably it needs to be accompanied by some logistical stuff on a government level. Like an example would be, I’m not talking about neurodiversity here, but an example on gender level would be if the government could make paternity leave as easy to take up as maternity leave. That would create a huge shift in terms of gender balance in organizations, because at the moment, it’s expensive for dads to take the extended leave. So, I think there are frameworks that the government can put in place like that, and I think they’re working on. and actually, these might already exist, like design standards about making things accessible for all in terms of information communication and technology (ICT) systems and so on. So that kind of, again, the framework can exist there. But I see a lot of success in the paradigm that we’re in, which is about focusing on the business case.
Me:
What kind of industries do you work with that employ neurodiverse people?
Roxanne Hobbs:
Yeah. It’s hard not to stereotype when you answer that question, but I see tech industries over indexing on autism, and ADHD to an extent. Veterinary industry, I work with that. Obviously, you have to be really good at science to become a vet that attracts certain types. I also work a lot in the advertising industry. The creative industries, they seem to over index. Well, they over index in all neurodiversity, actually. But Dyslexia, in the creative agencies, particularly in Dyslexia, there are industries that I think over index because of the nature of the work that gets put out of them. But you’ve got to be careful of the stereotyping, haven’t you? Because I think autistic people, for example, can be super creative, really creative. I’ve seen amazing creative work of autistic people, and so it would be a mistake just to think, oh, it’s just the Dyslexics that are great in terms of creativity.
Me:
Any other comments on helping the neurodiverse into employment?
Roxanne Hobbs:
How to get more neurodiverse people into work? Yeah, I think it’s really complex, and I think it’s not just about getting them in. It’s about there being an environment there which they can thrive and succeed in, because I’ve seen that happen where, I don’t know, say you’ve got an apprentice scheme and you’ve got an autistic person coming through that kind of scheme, and then they’ve gone into an environment which hasn’t been suitable for them. So, for me, it’s about the diversity, but then about the inclusion once they’re there as well. And that happens to be a two-pronged approach. And I think there’s a lot of neurodiversity in plain sight in the workplace that those people are there already. But there are also people that have been systemically excluded from the workplace because of their neurodiversity. Yeah, I don’t think I’ve got anything more. It’s complex, it’s hard, but I think we can raise awareness. Can’t we? People can understand their own stereotypes. I talk a lot in our unconscious bias training about stereotypes and helping people understand that if there are spelling mistakes on a CV, that doesn’t mean someone’s lazy. It might mean that they’re dyslexic. Or if you’ve got someone in an interview who keeps looking around the room and not getting eye contact with you, that doesn’t mean that they’re not interested.
It might mean that they’re autistic and just struggle to maintain eye contact. And so, trying to educate people on things the way it might show up in the recruitment process. So, they’re questioning themselves and not falling into those assumptions. I don’t think there’s like one thing that we need to do. I just think there’s lots of little tweaks and hacks to our current processes that need to happen to support more people in, but also to make them feel included once they’re there.
Me:
Do you instruct people in terms of how to maybe change their recruitment process so they don’t filter out neurodiverse candidates, for example?
Roxanne Hobbs:
Yeah, we do work with people on the recruitment process. The only pushback I would have is on your word instruct, because what we do is coaching approach, because we think if people work out for themselves, there’s more likely to be sustainable change. So, what we do is get them to map out their recruitment process and then ask questions about it, and then they might start to work out for themselves what might not work.
Me:
So how have people changed the recruitment process as a result?
Roxanne Hobbs:
Well, the most common thing that I’m seeing now is when they invite people to interview, asking them, do you have any additional needs for the interview process? And so, what we do at Hobbs Consultancy is if we’re recruiting, we send out the questions for the interview the day before. This is an example of a hack we’ve made. The person can read the questions and not be kind of blindsided in the interview with them. But asking what needs a person has, that becoming a part of your process to ask anybody that’s coming in for an interview, what additional requirements, what reasonable adjustments do they need for that process? And it might be that they need to not travel in rush hour or they need to be in a room without air conditioning, I don’t know. But just normalizing that it’s okay to ask for different things. So that would be an example.
Me:
I am personally in favour of getting rid of interviews I don’t think that they suit everyone.
Roxanne Hobbs:
I’ve got a lot of sympathy with that argument. I don’t think informal interviews are very helpful at all.
I completely agree with you. I think informal interviews suit a certain type of person and I’ve seen organizations like Microsoft are doing this really well where they test people’s skills rather than their ability in the interview.
Me:
Do you have anything else you’d like to say?
Roxanne Hobbs:
And do I have anything else that I want to say? Not really. I think it’s really important to me because I have a son who’s autistic, and I want to create a workplace that is going to be welcoming to people like him and that appreciates the talents that he’s got. As more and more kids get diagnosed, I think there’s more and more parents who will be feeling the same and want to create that change for the children of the workforce of the future. So, I’m really hopeful that we are on the cusp of creating a massive shift. I’m hopeful.
End note:
With thanks to Roxanne Hobbs of the Hobbs consultancy for taking the time for this interview.
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